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Knud Rossen:建成不代表結束

——訪維思平(WSP)建筑設計事務所創始合伙人、主設計師Knud Rossen

初次到訪維思平(WSP)建筑事務所,映入眼簾的是一座低調的灰色四層小樓。與其他知名設計公司將辦公室設在CBD寫字樓的“主流”選擇不同,這一獨棟多層辦公室經過維思平自身精心設計,外表樸實謙遜,室內呈現大量白色空間,細部體現對使用者的細致關懷,彰顯了獨特的設計哲學和審美品位。

在一層會議室,記者見到了此次采訪對象Knud Rossen。和德國人不茍言笑的刻板印象相反,Knud開朗健談,言語詼諧。針對建筑設計、質量維護、城市化等不同話題,透過他在建筑和房地產領域近四十年的工作經歷,在敏捷的思索后,道出了直率而深刻的洞見。

▲ 維思平(WSP)建筑設計事務所創始合伙人、主設計師 Knud Rossen

德國注冊建筑師,英國注冊建筑師。1982年畢業于德國布朗斯瓦格大學建筑系1982-1990曾工作于倫敦多家著名建筑師事務所。1990年任歐洲著名的西門子公司房地產與建筑設計部負責人,1993年成立MRA建筑師事務所。1996年成為WSP建筑設計的合伙人。Knud Rossen曾任教于著名的英國倫敦AA建筑學院,英國南岸工藝學校,同時為南京大學建筑系客座教授。

 

建筑師的最佳境界是提供超乎甲方想象的解決方案

Q 1

建筑暢言網:維思平近年完成了一系列大型總部建筑項目,如何使這些互聯網企業選擇并信任你們?

Archcy: WSP has completed several large-scale headquarter projects in recent years. What made these huge Internet companies choose and trust you?

KR:信任需要從點滴慢慢積累,從小到大。隨著總部設計項目的增多、經驗的積累以及公司知名度的提高,WSP逐漸取得了大型企業的信任,加之我們在德國有同類辦公項目設計經驗可借鑒,比如我們通常會在設計初期分析客戶公司結構、員工工作方式以及外界對客戶公司的認知等,把分析結果融匯到方案設計中。這些設計過程有足夠的說服力,讓客戶確信我們真正理解其要求,甚至能超越他們的期待,給出超乎想象的解決方案,這也是建筑師能達到的最佳境界。

▲ 維思平(WSP)建筑設計 辦公室

建筑、景觀與城市設計是緊密相連的,WSP旨在提供一體化解決方案,這也源自對建筑師角色的深刻理解。建筑應當是一個有機整體,如同生命一樣運行工作。我們應當投入到建筑從始至終的整個開發過程。我一直有個習慣,會在建筑建成若干年后重訪,看看人們的使用情況。在看到使用者理解我們的設計目的時,我也會感到無比喜悅。

KR:Of course, you start your way up from small to bigger companies. With growing experiences of working on headquarter projects, we gained the trust of bigger companies. Also, getting these projects are sometimes the results of participating in competitions. Besides, we have done similar projects before in Germany. The process of how to approach the specific requirements on headquarter buildings has certain methodology behind that, which you can apply in different companies. The beginning always is analysis of the structure of the company, of how the people work, how they want to be seen by themselves, by their staff, by the outside. These will all be summarized in the new building. Also, due to our process of approaching design tasks, we convince the clients that we have understood their requirements. Or even better, we can surprise the client with solutions that he had not even thought about. That is the best that an architect can do.

Architecture, landscape and urban design are totally belonging together. We aim at delivering an integrated design, which comes from our classic understanding of the role of the architect. It ought to achieve an organism building which works and functions as a life. To that end, you have to be part of the developing the birth of the building as much as from the beginning to the end. What I always like to do is to revisit a building a few years later to see what people have done with it. The most enjoyable moment is when you see that they have understood what we wanted to achieve. 

 

我們的設計不是為了營造風格

Q2

建筑暢言網:維思平的設計理念是什么?有哪些賦有經典魅力的設計作品?

Archcy: Can you summarize your design philosophy and name the projects with timeless value?

KR:我們的設計不是為了營造風格。公司成立的20年間,我們擁有了許多經典項目和難忘的記憶,人們也許會從外觀上判斷一座建筑是維思平的作品,但這不是因為我們運用了某種風格,而是出于特定的邏輯內涵。

▲ 南京長發中心/維思平(WSP)建筑設計

其中一個項目是南京長發中心, 由兩棟高150 米的辦公姊妹雙塔,以及南側兩棟135 米高的塔式公寓所組成。我們在2003年做了方案設計,并和業主建立了良好的合作關系。建筑師需要做的絕非僅僅是項目設計,更要和業主溝通,相互激發靈感。

▲ 深圳金地梅隴鎮/維思平(WSP)建筑設計

大型項目中,我個人欣賞的是深圳金地梅隴鎮。項目面積達到了一個可步行的小城市的規模,在高密度下賦予人們開放的空間、綠化、購物設施,并實現了地面無車化,為地下停車場引入自然采光。盡管項目規模巨大,卻兼顧了細部,在規模大、工期短的情況下,實現了高質量的工程效果,成為大規模建筑施工的范例。

KR:Our design is not about a style. People from outside might think that this is probably a WSP building. It is not necessarily because of a style that been applied, but a certain logic. We are simple thinking people. During the 20 years since WSP was established, some remarkable projects are linked with exciting memories.

Nanjing Changfa Center (CFC) is one of those projects, two twin towers with residential buildings behind. It was around 2003, when we did the design and had wonderful relation to our client. It is not just architects doing a project, but we also have to communicate with the client, inspiring each other.

Among the big projects I like, there is Shenzhen Gemdale Meilong Town. It resolved two problems, in which one is that its scale is more than one million square meters, amounting to the scale of a small city, a walkable city. Although with high density, it offers everyone with open spaces, green spaces, shopping facilities and no cars above ground, offering underground car parks with daylight. Besides this urban aspect, even though it was a massive project, we developed the details for the building, which allowed to be executed with good quality, but simple enough to allow that in the big amount, in such a short time. This was one of the examples of mass production of buildings.

 

在資源和可能性相對有限時,反而可能產生最好的建筑。

Q3

建筑暢言網:維思平完成的項目類型豐富多樣,包括安徽黃山休寧雙龍小學這個公益建筑和北京多處住宅項目。你們有沒有接手項目的標準?

Archcy: The types of your projects are diversified and varied, including Xiuning Shuanglong Primary School in Anhui and residential buildings in suburban area of Beijing. Is there a standard to take over projects?

▲ 安徽黃山休寧雙龍小學/維思平(WSP)建筑設計

KR: 在資源和可能性相對有限時,反而可能產生最好的建筑。反之,當有無限可能時,建筑也許會很糟糕。大家可以觀察一下鄉村地區沒有建筑師的建筑,它們都由當地人建造的,僅僅使用磚塊、石頭、木材、瓦片等作為建材。但這些建筑卻可以很出色,比例適宜,邏輯合理。

KR: Architecture can be even best when it works with limited resources and possibilities. On the contrary, when you have endless possibilities, you often end up with the most horrible architecture. If you look at simple architecture without architects in the countryside of locals, limited to just bricks, rocks, timber beams, tiles or even leaves. This always results in good architecture with good proportion and logical decisions.

 

建成不代表結束,建筑全生命周期品質亟待維護

Q4

建筑暢言網:對于建筑質量管理,您有什么見解?

Archcy: What is your view of building quality management?

▲ 杭州支付寶大廈/維思平(WSP)建筑設計

KR: 有些人會缺少這樣一種意識——在建筑全生命周期中,維護成本要高于施工建造成本。我們需要有清晰的計劃,了解如何實施維護,確保每年的成本收支,維持現有的建筑品質,并運用現代科技在幾十年的建筑使用周期內進行更新改造。

有時會有這樣一種現象:在建筑完工后,如果無人打理,就會看上去很老舊。這和原建筑質量沒有關系,而是因為沒人真正在意。每一座建筑都需要設立管理體系,明確項目權屬。究其原因,其一,中國建筑項目數量太多。一旦建成,人們便不會再放很多心思在這個項目上,而是繼續向前,投入到下個項目中。其次是工程款支付問題,歐洲施工方在項目竣工時不能得到所有款項,5-6%的尾款會保留五年左右。只有屆時工程質量沒問題,施工方才能得到這筆錢。

從總體看,德國建筑交付工期和中國無異。施工工期也類似,唯一差別是歐洲會使用預制元件,因此施工速度有時會更快。至于規劃許可,常規項目需要3到6個月,而區域規劃則需要更長時間。

KR:People sometimes are not aware that besides the money on constructing one building, it costs more during the life cycle in sustaining the building. You need clear program, how you do the maintenance, get and spend the money every year to maintain the existing quality, upgrade to more modern technologies over a life cycle of buildings.

In many cases in China, when a project is being built, everyone responsible just disappears, resulting that the building looks like 10 years old after merely one year. This is not about the original quality of one building, but no one cares about the building. So, you need management system for each building, also particular ownership of projects. There might be two reasons, one is that there are so many building projects in China. When projects are finished, people can't think back. Instead, they always think forward, shifting to the next project. The construction payment is another issue. In Europe, builders don't get all the money when a project is finished. 5% to 6% of the money is held back for maybe 5 years. After those 5 years, if the project quality is OK, the balance payment will be wired.

Generally speaking, the whole process of building project delivery in Germany does not take shorter or longer than in China. The construction is more or less the same time. Only the difference is that in Europe we use pre-fabricated elements in constructing buildings. Thus, it could even be faster occasionally. In achieving planning permission, an ordinary project might take 3 to 6 months; for zoning plan, it surely takes longer.

 

包豪斯不認為建筑是所有藝術創作的王者

Q5

建筑暢言網:今年是包豪斯建校100周年。如何理解包豪斯對現代建筑的影響?

Archcy: 2019 marks the centenary of Bauhaus school. How do you understand its influence on modern architecture?

KR:包豪斯對現代建筑做出了巨大貢獻,其出現前后的建筑存在明顯反差。包豪斯建筑的極簡主義風格是對早前時期過度裝飾的回應。包豪斯及現代建筑并沒有否認建筑裝飾,只是提出了與過去有別的主張。包豪斯不認為建筑是所有藝術創作的王者,創建出將所有內容匯總的概念,包括人們在建筑中如何使用、居住、舞蹈、利用空間等等。

KR:Bauhaus made a huge contribution to modern architecture. Architecture before and after Bauhaus era showed great contrast. The minimalist appearance of Bauhaus architecture was the result of reaction to the over-decorated buildings in the previous era. Bauhaus and modern architecture did not deny decoration on buildings. Instead, it made statement of being different to the past. In the Bauhaus, architecture was not the way considered to be the crown of all the forms of design or creation. There was the concept of bringing all the things together, including the way architecture is being used, by living in it, by dancing in it, by making use etc. 

 

宜居城市應具備適宜的尺度,提供吸引人的交通替代方式

Q6

建筑暢言網:中國城市化存在哪些挑戰?怎樣營造更宜居的城市環境?

Archcy: What are the challenges of urbanism in China? How to achieve livable urban environment?

▲ 天津老城廂/維思平(WSP)建筑設計

KR:我們不應該過多構想理想解決方案,而應當從現實層面出發,盡可能去糾正或證明一些做法。重要的是解決城市的尺度問題,優化交通系統,賦予人們更優質的交通方式,使其不必面對擁堵。一定有更安全、快捷、清潔、可靠的公共交通方式。

我聽過一句調侃——中國人忙于進入汽車時代,而歐洲人正回歸騎自行車。自行車是城市重要的個人交通工具。歐洲正對過多汽車車道和停車場的現狀展開辯論,人們正為自行車爭取更多空間。不過北京實在太大,住在南部大興的人想去東北部的望京,很難騎自行車抵達。問題的關鍵是創造吸引人的交通替代方式。

KR:We should not have too many visions of ideal solutions. Instead, we should start in a realistic level and rectify, prove certain things as much as possible. The most important thing is to tackle the size of the city, to organize the transportation system in a better way, which allows people to have better choice of transportation, rather than being in a traffic jam. There must be a safe, fast, clean, reliable public transportation system.

I know the joke that the Chinese going to cars while Europeans going back to bicycles. Bicycles can be a very important element in the individual transportation within cities. There is a battle of debating why cars get so much spaces in Europe, that people are demanding more spaces for bicycles. But unfortunately, it is very hard for a man living in Daxing to go to Wangjing by bicycle as Beijing is so big. The key is to create attractive alternatives of transportation.

 

下一個行業市場?

可能是改造項目、度假住宅及閑置購物中心再利用

Q 7

建筑暢言網:您正在做什么項目?對今后的建筑設計市場,有何預測?

Archcy: What are your current works? How do you predict the future market of architecture design?

KR:我在德國同時做房地產開發和建筑設計。多數是19世紀住宅改造,翻新到現代標準,并可能帶有少量擴建工程。目前正在做一項柏林住宅開發,另一個項目是萊比錫19世紀住宅翻新。

工廠是我最喜歡的項目類型,因為必須要理解工廠工作、生產流程,同技術人員交流。我很享受分析問題、尋找優化方案的過程。

▲ 西溪濕地藝術集合村/維思平(WSP)建筑設計

▲ 百色養生文化產業園/維思平(WSP)建筑設計

經濟波動一直存在。我們身邊許多建筑都是在過去20多年中快速建成的。但這些建筑周邊很多處于未建狀態,如果將鏡頭拉近,會發現北京有許多待建的項目。當然,小規模地塊不可能建設宏偉的高層建筑,我們今后數代人的任務就是聚焦微觀的區域。

從現實看,度假住宅可能是下一個未來市場。這一業態已經在城市中初見規模,并將延伸到農村地區。另一個市場或許是閑置的購物中心。將未充分利用的建筑進行活化改造將成為一項城市任務。

KR:I am now doing real estate and architecture in Germany. Most are existing residential buildings from 19th century, which are to be upgraded to modern standards, slightly extended if possible. My current project is a housing development in Berlin. Another is an upgrading residential project from 19th century in Leipzig.

My favorite activity is factories because when you're doing factories, you need to understand what they do, how the production work flow is, building relation with technical people. I like analyzing that, finding better solutions. 

Economy is always going up and down. A lot of buildings around us have been built quickly in the last 20 years or so. The spaces around them seem unfinished. If we zoom into small areas of Beijing, there are so many works that still needs to be done. But on a smaller scale, people cannot draw an amazing high-rise building. To zoom in is the works of the next 10 generations. 

In reality, holiday homes are probably a future market. It is already happening in cities and are moving to the countryside. Another market might be useless shopping centers. Enabling the under used buildings to be used in a better way is an urban task. 


鼓勵更多的年輕建筑師去工地學習觀察

Q8

建筑暢言網:您是怎樣成為建筑師的?對于求職的建筑師,您會首先問哪個問題?

Archcy: How do you become an architect? What is the foremost question you’d ask an architect candidate?

KR:我小時候沒有想當建筑師的想法,但我一直喜歡到處玩,比如挖洞,在樹上搭房子。

我會問的一個重要問題是“你為什么學建筑?”人們的回答可能是“我爸爸是建筑師,所以我學建筑”。其他問題包括“為了當建筑師,做了哪些事?”以及“有沒有旅行并參觀各地的建筑?”

我蠻看重實習生在建筑工地上的工作經驗。工地經驗很重要,歐洲建筑師更可能有工地實習的經歷。在工地上,建筑師能看到圖紙在現實中的細節呈現,了解到工人建造的過程。如果有更多建筑師曾在工地工作,建筑細部或許會處理得更好。

KR:I've never had the vision of becoming an architect as a child, even though I was always playing around, digging holes, building houses in trees.

One important question is always that "why have youstudied architecture?" People would probably say that “I studied itbecause my father is an architect”. And “what have you done to be an architect?”;“Have you traveled and visited architecture?”

I've always thought that an architect intern should have been worked on a construction site. It is an important experience and European architects more often do that. Because they can see the details that they've drawn, how they built this. If more architects have worked in construction site, some of the details would be better perhaps. 

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標簽:維思平WSPKnud杭州支付寶大廈南京長發中心

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